Me: Hey Heather. I saw your status...and the pic you sent me. Very disturbing but not everyone can be a vegan. Even the Native Americans and other peoples who were good to the land and animals ate meat. Not all animals that are bred for commercial use are treated badly and bred incorrectly.
Heather: Actually everyone CAN be vegan.. everyone just doesn't WANT to be. People put their WANTS over the animals' NEEDS. And the native Americans NEEDED to eat meat in order to survive. We do NOT. And EVERY animal raised in a CAFO is indeed treated inhumanely and ALL animals regardless of whether they were raised in a CAFO or not (your meat probably was) is treated inhumanely at slaughter. The fact that a living being had to die for your WANT says enough. Since when did death become humane under any circumstance? Hitler killed the Jews humanely- the gas chamber was pretty damn humane- just fall asleep but we still say it's wrong don't we?
Me: I understand what those who push for veganism for all are going for, but I don’t agree with it for a few reasons. First of all, this thinking assumes that everyone physically *can* be vegan, meaning they don’t need animal protein or meat. That’s just not true; yes, most people probably can be, but not everyone. Why? For most people, the liver can produce all the cholesterol you need by itself; you don’t have to actually ingest cholesterol in your diet. (And yes, despite its evil reputation, you do need some cholesterol to produce certain hormones, avoid osteoporosis, etc.)
No plant food actually contains cholesterol, only animal-based foods. My friend's father has this condition; if he doesn’t eat some every day, he’d literally be dead, because he would be getting no cholesterol in any form. Small group of people, I admit, but still there.Second of all, I don’t think any of us fully understand the fine workings of the human body (and I’m no doctor, for sure) enough to say that *everyone* can follow a purely vegan diet and be healthy. Not just that small group of people
I spoke of earlier who clearly need to ingest cholesterol, but those with varying degrees of need to ingest what is chemically a very different kind of protein than vegan-based foods but who have no exact diagnosis of any disorder. I have a couple of friends who desperately tried to become vegan because they so believe in it as a lifestyle, but they just couldn’t. They need to consume small amounts of meat regularly to feel their best.Third of all, although some would consider this less important than the other reasons, a lot of vegans have pets. So if you’re a pet “parent,” you’re an indirect consumer of the meat industry even if you don’t eat meat yourself. I have no idea how I’d feed my beloved kitties and keep them their healthiest were the meat production industry to disappear tomorrow.
Heather: Let's assume that 1% of 1% of people need some type of cholesterol to survive- that's no reason not to be vegetarian- vegetarians can even be ethical- getting their eggs from local farmers for in stance or even having their own chickens.That being said- that does not apply for the majority of people who simply have no excuse. And it is not true that you need animal protein (outside this rare condition you speak of) to prevent things like osteoporosis. In fact, vegetarians and vegans have a much lower occurrence of osteoporosis than non veg's.
As for your different bodies theory, there have, thus far, been no studies that show anything but positive benefits to human health including lower risk of high cholesterol, high blood pressure, cancer, osteoporosis, degenerative brain diseases, autism (a vegan diet helps control it quite a bit, ADD and ADHD and numerous other diseases. so... if not eating meat has any negative effect, the positive effects it has cancels them out a hundred fold. Your friends- they didn't do it correctly. period. there are, I'll admit, many people who try to become veg who do it incorrectly and become sick.
when i first became vegetarian I developed a major vitamin B deficiency. Now that I"m more educated, it's no longer a problem. Pets can become vegan. Dogs, being natural omnivores adapt to a vegan lifestyle easily. cats can also become vegan but you have to be a more active parent. the main producer of vegan cat products is veg cat. I think you miss the point of being vegan. The point is to create as little harm as possible.
Therefore, even if your pets do consume meat products for health reasons, you are still reducing your impact as much as you personally possibly can. (some cats must consume a small amount of meat due to urinary tract infections- mostly male cats who are not neutered) What it sounds like is that you, like most meat eaters, are reaching for straws in an attempt to defend your lifestyle and yet you've said nothing that justifies not being vegetarian at least and only a few minority health concerns that would justify not being vegan.
Me: I personally don't think it's healthy to not have any meat or animal bi-products. It doesn't make a bad person, it's just a personal choice like any otter lifestyle choice. I recycle, I live as an environmentally friendly has I can (and I am more environmentally friendly than most people). There are doctors with PH.D.'s who say that a full vegan lifestyle isn't healthy. Are they not educated too?! No, the answer is that they have read and done the research like the doctors who push for veganism and they have made their own decisions based on that like any educated person. Being educated doesn't mean that you have to agree the same. You can know what you're talking about and just draw different conclusions. I'll admit that there are some benefits to being vegan but it's not for everybody.
Heather: All studies have shown that a vegan lifestyle is healthier than a meat eating lifestyle. Not one has ever shown otherwise. If it comes down to choosing between information that says it's not fully healthy and that it's more healthy then you have to realize that there's nothing wrong with the vegans around now and that it comes down to ethics- murdering and torturing.. or not. And, if you thought it was for some reason unhealthy to be vegan- again.. you've not yet made even the tiniest case against vegetarianism (consuming eggs and dairy but not meat) AND you should at least recognize the unnecessary violence and inhumanity in CAFO's and decide to buy "happy meat" (the term for pastoral meat). Although I don't have the slightest idea how you think lowering heart disease and cancer are unhealthy. I think we may have different understandings of healthy.. by healthy I mean living longer.
Me: Becoming a vegan does not guarantee health. I know a woman who has been a vegan since the age of 9 and is now 50 and has had two strokes, has glaucoma, and has high blood pressure and cholesterol. Veganism is not a weight-loss diet nor is it a way to cure all health ills. We're humans, we eat meat. We are carnivores, that is the natural way for the food chain. That is how is has always been and will be. I urge you to read The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. It is publishing a plethora of papers on vegetarian, vegan and plant-based diets and their effects on health as part of an upcoming supplement, so it’s a good time to take a look at the latest research.
Also, our ecosystem depends on us eating meat. Just like the lion who eats wilder beast and antelope to be healthy because that is what nature has mandated he eat, Humans are mandated to eat meat as well. When you switch to discovery channel and see a lion or tiger ripping into an animal it is very inhumane but we don't bash the tiger or lion or go kill it because we understand that is just nature and nature is cruel sometimes. It's the way the food chain is designed. I believe the same is true of humans and meat.
Heather: Who said it guaranteed weight loss? H ave you seen me? And I think you misunderstand the word Carnivore. We are omnivores. If someone tried to be a Carnivore they'd die from lack of nutrients. And I believe I've already stressed that being a vegan also means being educated in nutrition and still I've not heard a single argument against vegetarianism. lmao! I thought you said you were an environmentalist? Industrialized meat factories are destroying the ecosystem.. they don't do it the way nature does it sweetie. They are the biggest producers of pollution both on land, air and sea.
Me: the biggest producers of air pollution are energy plants, waste burnings from garbage dumps and landfills, and textile production. Pharmaceutical companies come in a close second.
Heather: lol okay okay.. you have me on a technicality on the air part of the pie. Still.. there's no denying that meat industry comes in very very close behind. Besides, Once I build a house I'm going to be energy independent, have no trash whatsoever and weave my own towels! okay.. not the last one...
Me: I know that it's a relatively small technicality but all the pollution, global warming, ecosystem killing can't be blamed on one source or one group of people. If every human made even the smallest lifestyle changes,not necessarily dietary, it would help to put the world back together. Not eating meat or eating meat isn't what's doing most of the damage to our planet.
Heather: Eating meat is bad for health, bad for the environment and ethically wrong. I keep wondering what your arguments against vegetarianism are?
Me: Here are a couple of my logic:When you get down to it, most animals, including humans, are naturally suited for eating other animals. It is clearly possible to have a healthy diet without any meat, but it's often a lot harder. When a vegetarian claims that you're violating animal rights, remember them that many researches can prove us that plants have some level of awareness of their environments. How can one argue about animal rights without knowing how much does a single plant can feel(or how much is a plant aware of what it feels) at all? Most vegetarians still use animal products in things like leather, glue, gelatin, and some pharmaceutic capsules.
There's hypocrisy in using some animal products despite claims to the contrary If we were made to eat only plants, wouldn't we have multiple stomachs, like cows? Our stomach's production of hydrochloric acid, something not found in herbivores. HCL activates protein-splitting enzymes. Further, the human pancreas manufactures a full range of digestive enzymes to handle a wide variety of foods, both animal and vegetable.
Not all slaughterhouses treat the animals with unnecessary cruelty. There are plenty of ways to make sure you eat well treated animals. What if I just ate free-range chickens? I do.Our bodies are designed as omnivores. Take a look at our dental records and our nutrient requirements.Your body needs protein from meat.I believe that a balanced diet is the healthiest so that means meat should be a part of it. man has been eating meat for thousands of years.
Heather: Okay.. this is going to sound harsh but I"m in a bad mood so I apologize ahead of time for offending you (when I get suicidal I also have a hard time candy coating things) Wah- It's harder? Big deal! You know what was hard? Standing up for freedom for slaves. Standing up for women's rights. THAT was hard- learning a few new recipes and actually cooking? Really? THAT'S too hard?
2. That's ridiculous. Firstly, fruits with seeds specifically evolved to be eaten. Not only that but plants do not have brains or nervous systems thus lacking the necessary parts to feel any kind of pain or discomfort. The only awareness they have is which way to grow based on photochemical reactions. No pain, no discomfort. Not only that, but you're completely ignoring the fact that I already stated a vegan's purpose is to reduce as much harm as possible. Plants, IF they felt pain.. which they DON'T would feel something greatly reduced to that of an animal.. which is stupid since they don't even feel pain so I don't know why I'm even bothering with a hypothetical.
3. You are again ignoring my statement of reduced harm. Also, Most vegans do NOT use leather products, gelatin, pharmaceutical capsules, etc. Even my beauty products are not tested on animals and have no animal derived ingredients.
4. Cows have multiple stomachs specifically to be able to break down grass. We humans cannot eat grass. You seem to be arguing with flawed logic that says we should not eat any plants whatsoever. It's evident that people can survive in a healthy way on a plant based diet.. no person can survive in a healthy way on a meat only diet. We evolved to eat plants whenever possible and meat when necessary.
5. Yes they do. And I do agree that happy meat is better than CAFO meat but no meat is better yet. But keep in mind that free range in the industry means very little. They have access to the outdoors but most don't even know what the outdoors are. They have a two week window in which they're allowed to venture out a tiny cat-like door onto a tiny area. Many are too crippled to do so even if they wanted to.
6. It is completely incorrect to say a person's body NEEDS meat. It can digest it, but does not need it. 7. A balanced diet means protein, not meat. Of which all vegans get plenty of. there are no health benefits to meat consumption.
Me: To try to equate women and African Americans with animals is totally unreal and degrading. Humans and animals are on totally different levels. For example, would you rather your dog get kidnapped or...your son? I would hope you would say the dog since human life is more valuable. Same with killing, someone's child being killed versus a chicken or cow or pig. Not to say that it's okay to light a cat on fire just because, but when it comes down to eating habits and the food chain, that's just nature. We are at the top of the animal kingdom family. No one in the civilized world eats Black people, Hispanics, women, or Jews....unless you're Jeffrey Dahmer. And while the fight for equal rights was hard, it was really sad how we had to fight to begin with we're all humans.
There is really only one race...the human race. We are all bi-ped, homosapiens, mammals. Color is just superficial. A cow or chicken can not claim the same. There is a reason they are called livestock rather than just pets or domestics...they are meant for human and other animal consumption. Plain and simple. We don't eat our cats but we eat chicken. Also, I know that plants don't feel pain. I put that in there hoping you would say something like you did: evolution and natural selection. Certain animals evolve to be eaten. Nature knows their place, it's time humans start taking note of it. Speaking of the food chain and food web, I advise you to look it up...NONE OF US WOULD EXIST IF ANIMALS WERE NOT EATEN.
Anyways, people are entitled to eat meat if they want to (I do), and animal protein is a good source of protein (this includes eggs), but most people eat far too much of it which is where your health problems come in. Moderation is the key. I know that for a fact all studies show that eating TOO much red meat(poultry and fish is not a part of by the way) does increase the risk of cancer, obesity, diabetes, heart disease, and mortality rate. I haven't had red meat in two weeks. The last time I did was at a wedding and it was a little round piece of steak...shoot me. Too much is defined by it comprising 40% and over of a person's daily intake and diet.
Reducing impact right? Studies show that animal protein is the best for human sustainment. I'll link you later. Why eat just tofu, processed/preserved, fake, not-as-healthy- as -the -real thing, imitation food? Raw food diet is better than vegan or vegetarian because at least you can have sushi (fish being another form of good protein). Most vegetarians use vitamin supplements which I again have a gripe with putting other chemical substances other than "food" in my body. I don't think it's healthy. Why use substances and chemicals made to imitate what is already found in nature. Native-Americans ate meat because they understood the circle of life and the food chain.
Technically, they could have survived on just the maize, corn, rice granules, and other agriculture they grew but they even knew it wasn't healthy. Shit, you can survive on eating just dry rice and oatmeal but I wouldn't recommend it. There is a lot of stuff you can 'survive on' but doesn't make it okay.And in fact, humans can eat grass.The Irish were eating grass as a last resort during the potato famine. It's actually part of the most extreme raw food diet (and I am not just talking about wheat-grass juice)
Once, again, check it out. Of course with raw food diet comes the very high risk of food poisoning but hey, reduce impact and die right? We are adapted to eat cooked meat. To say that there are no health benefits to eating meat is not correct. Just as many studies out there that state the benefits of vegetarian and vegan lifestyle, there are just as many or more that are against it. In any academic circle, nothing is absolute but anyways:
http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4632
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=116
http://www.drmercola.biz/2009/03/dangers-of-too-much-red-meat.html
http://www.iloveindia.com/nutrition/recipes/non-veg-dishes/goodness-of-meat.html
http://www.msplinks.com/MDFodHRwOi8vd3d3Lndhc2hpbmd0b25wb3N0LmNvbS93cC1keW4vY29udGVudC9hcnRpY2xlLzIwMDYvMTAvMTcvQVIyMDA2MTAxNzAwNDc1Lmh0bWw=
They said it better than I could.
Heather: The point isn't to put animals on the same level as human beings but rather to say that standing up for what's right is not always easy and it's rarely the norm. You're basically saying that animals are different so screw em. Who cares about their pain? Who cares about their suffering? They're too different from us. As for your kitty.. why DON'T you eat her? She's the same as a cow or chicken. She feels the same emotions, she feels the same pain and they're at least as smart (actually smarter). So why is she somehow more deserving of freedom from pain than they are? No animal evolved to be eaten. Every single animal on the face of the earth has one main evolutionary drive- survive. To say otherwise shows a lack of understanding of evolution and the way the animal kingdom works.
I t hink it's funny you're bringing nature into it since nothing that happens in a CAFO is natural. It takes 25 pounds of grain to produce 1 pound of beef. It takes 10X the to feed one meat eaters vs one vegan. Sustainability? Only in your dreams. Yes, veg's use supplements.. so do non veg's. It has more to do with how much attention you pay to your diet. Native Americans could not have survived healthfully without meat. Now we can. It's able to be a choice now rather than a need. Humans can eat grass if they really want to.. but they can't digest it properly. Which is why we don't do it. What you're doing is giving me straw arguments. They're old, tired and half of it's not even true. Some of it's just ridiculous. It's like talking to a religious person. Laughable and infuriating at the same time.
Me: Yeah, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. This is going nowhere.
MY CONCLUSION: 
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